However, I have seen two people disfellowshipped at a church, and both of them should have been based on scripture. Velour wrote: We are so grateful that you made it. Id also add that AA, in the case of one of my family members, after he stopped drinking, contributed to his so-called stinking thinking.. What that entails goes far beyond boundaries and often means marital separation, i.e. I saw several psychologists and psychiatrists in person over years, and none of them diagnosed me properly, and so were unable to help me. Should alcoholics and drug addicts be enabled? The same woman surgeon from before and a woman anesthesiologist and more women in scrubs packed into the OR than I thought necessary-but they have their reasons. But that runs right up against CELEBRITY Syndrome and TOUCH NOT MINE ANOINTED!, Barbara Roberts wrote: The best insights and advice a family will ever get about an alky family member is from other alkies. They have to want it themselves, and desperately so. After internship I started a residency in psychiatry but I did not finish the residence. We can be His hands & feet to a hurting soul, we can listen without telling, we can confess our faults to others so they understand they are not alone, we can give anonymously to people & not tithe to a church. Thanks ever so much. RC2 has been off the rails for a long time and has been able to act outrageously under his fathers overt protection. He has a lot of wreckage to clean up and much damage to many peoples lives. You both have different and appropriate responses, so why you are putting her down is beyond me. A question: Weve already discussed this up the thread. This does not give any of us an excuse to walk in disobedience to the Lord as he has. In this day and age of the internet, if someone has a problem (like alcoholism or a psychological issue) they could Google about it. I just dont know any. If RC Jr could have legally used the rack at St. Peter Presbyterian Im confident he would have, at the very least, held out the threat of its use. But we were in a semi-rural small town exurb and life is like that in smaller circles. If one has not read the Adult children of alcoholic books, dont consider yourself educated on this matter. Finding resolve amidst the dissonance of "churchianity". But to take that info and post it here? and just as simply, they dont drive afterward someone who only drank soft things is the designated driver. The church should do their level-best to get help for his wife and children. I am so sorry that her parents were killed. But interventions and treatment does work. Velour wrote: Sproul, Sr., might want to get a more personal glimpse into the man to whom many have looked for spiritual guidance and wisdom. But putting him out of the church does not stop him getting that assistance. The best place for him to go for his probation is an in-patient treatment facility for alcoholism (and whatever else his problems are that his intake uncovers). The pain is awful, particularly when loved ones have been snatched away because someone foolishly chose to drink and drive. Being a drunkard is just a symptom of some much deeper issues. So glad you are with us today. I am not an alcoholic. Are you speaking of recovered alcoholics that you know that support patriarchy? Sproul Sr. will experience, Heres hoping Dees post will have such an impact on someone that they will resolve to. You may recall that he wrote a post about the Ashley Madison scandal, knowing he had an account, and later had to confess after he was outed. Even if you arent an addict, you can start to build a tolerance if you drink consistently. Mae wrote: and me. youll follow his example. The recovering alcoholics that I know who work good sobriety programs (men and women alike) have ditched many of their old ways. Now that Im grown and look back on that, I realize even more clearly how serious a situation that could have become if he had had a few too many, driving home on twisting mountain roads in the pouring rain. RC Sproul passed on, aged 78 years, on December 14, 2017 in Altamonte Springs, Seminole County, Florida. Now I can look back and say, How in the world did we not see how destructive their theology and community was?. They are quite different. He was into the Federal Vision (Doug Wilson) heresy which caused a lot of anguish for a lot of people for years. He needs a skill-intervention by those people around him. But I have not seen anyone say, Kick them out of the church!. The state does not usually come up with the funds for treatment. I truly hurt for you. @ Barbara Roberts: Because I actually get it. Jr. sounds like hes running a cult, not a Presbyterian Church. After he became the scapegoat and the Father had imputed to him every sin of every one of his people, the most intense, dense concentration of evil ever experienced on this planet was exhibited. dont recall, still too lazy to scroll up to re read her comment at this time) would it be fine with you if he was fired in private? We could not see how brainwashed we had been until we had gained some distance, time, and perspective. That so easily could have been all she wrote. I also see your point, that his family might be better off if he got treatment. This guy is not pastoral material, period. Send me an email. So youre uncomfortable with those truths. Thanks ever so much. I also think that churches, like employers, play a role in getting people with addictions into treatment. I get that church is not just a building, its people. and drive with children while drunk! The Sprouls lived in an extremely rural town called Mendota. What he did was wrong and could have been much worse than it turned out to be. Id also add that AA, in the case of one of my family members, after he stopped drinking, contributed to his so-called stinking thinking. I think theres a mixing of apples and oranges here, and its been going on since the very start of this thread. http://www.al-anon.alateen.org/. That he should get treatment; and And I know how the victims of such unjust expulsions often feel, because we hear from them often at A Cry For Justice. He took me home. Sproul 2 has his own household and is not part of his fathers household. I believen you may not know that history with JR. RC2 as an intelligent child and adolescent would learn to leverage that, and then we are off to the races toward where we are now. The ironic thing, Velour, is that in my experience most recovering alkies, both in AA and CR, would encourage Lisa to show RC Jr tough love. Its a term that comes up often in CR meetings. It seems that most of us are in agreement that: 1. He got a $350 fine and 250 hours of community service. We all toasted to the bride and groom with a glass of champagne. Perhaps you missed Barbaras comment on Friday at 5:40 p.m. to H.U.G. Im not sure how any of that stuff in and of itself would help someone to stop drinking? According to Ligonier Ministries: Dr. R.C. Im not expert enough to know what the truth is in that area. . I am a broken, wounded woman, who happens to have different people in my life who cut, starve, purge, overeat, get drunk, medicate with R/X drugs, smoke pot, work themselves ragged, overspend, in hope to silence the agony of depression, intense anxiety, raging self-contempt, hopeless despair, excruciating shame, and (false) guilt. She was just the last in a long line of others before her who have brought it up. The Bible says that those who profess to be brothers in Christ and are drunkards need to be expelled from the church. Sr. cant stop Jr. from spending his money on alcohol. I. Were not mind readers. I get the same apples and oranges feeling someone else mentioned. u%\la7vQ8V$=SDkMZjDGZ1Ma-=X|P)qJ-ck`koxRx^D"N;~*;('q. Having said that, I suggest you read the verses I gave (1 Cor 5:11-13). In that case, the hurting people reference is not applicable and its spin off allusions are incorrect and misleading. A few years later my brother in law was dying and I went to see him, very long story, and I shared with him the Gospel and the love of Christ, He accepted Christ, my church family reminded me that almost all death bed conversions are false conversions and most likely my brother in law died in his sins and went on to a Christless eternity, I dont know what church teaches that death-bed conversions are false, but I am Christian enough to know that isnt true . Congratulations to your daughter and family, Darlene. When I am around a person/s who are alcoholics, I will not drink alcohol because I dont want to be a cause for them to be tempted to drink. We cant assume they cant be helped, no. I have already done that. I agree that Sproul 2 shouldnt be enabled by his father, Sproul 1. They are false teachers without a flock, but with a following. And wisdom to know the difference. Why? Here bones had been severely broken, and I will never forget seeing her elbow and knee in traction. I am furious at how our culture tolerates substance abuse as much as we do. Double, Bubble, Toil and Stumble, by RC Sproul Jr. seems to me that enabling is not the same thing as really helping, and a lot of people think they are helping when they are just enabling the status quo, a hospital detox AND good psychiatric care are NOT the same thing as enabling because they are designed to STOP the status quo, agreed: if a person does not want to stop drinking, they cant be forced; but if the person gets into enough trouble (ie. Mine was a quiet conversion-I thought a lot about what I was hearing and reading, and through Gods kindness to me and the prompting of the Spirit, came to faith. Seeing a thread go down this road again makes me very sad. The Bible teaches no such thing. ), are out of line. (Which, admittedly, was not a part of the original discussion.). I have been on the receiving end of that sense of entitlement, & preferential treatment of alcohol over humans many times. but only if the person is dead serious about sobriety. I got there at about 9:30. It doesnt always work when you are in the Boys Club or RC1s son. I wouldnt wish it on my worst enemy, including my ex-pastor who did it to me (and the doctor before me and to the woman in finance before him) or the other horrible pastors/elders. Our sin is as sinful as is his. He held degrees from Westminster College (B.A., 1961), Pittsburgh . Should you have been kicked out of church because you struggled with depression, anxiety, or any other problem? Christiane, you ask whether there is authoritative oversight in the Presbyterian Church. That is an important element here. I really loved my father very much and he gave more for his family in deeper ways than most of the superhero folks that command such respect in the franchises from what I have observed. I know that scriptures about church discipline have been posted in their proper context, even with compassion for how to treat those who have repented. If a person professing to be a Christian and is a drunkard (i.e. We outed ourselves, started. And I'm sure you didn't mean 'Alcoholism is an excuse to drink' I'm pretty sure you meant something like "Alcoholics use tragedy as an excuse to drink. To the contrary, this blog is littered with stories of the failings of 9 Marks, Acts 29, and a plethora of other churches who have inflicted great harm on people before hundreds if not thousands of people. They are quite different. Lets Take a Breather With A Bizarre Story about R.C. I wont go into too much what I was told when I moved back in by my church family, abandoning God, letting the church down, not having the mind of Christ, succumbing to the world, loving my family more than loving God etc. Psychiatric evaluation with continuing monitoring to help with alcohol abuse as self-med for suffering from unresolved pain brought on by deep grief. Jr. sounds like hes running a cult, not a Presbyterian Church. At mass I saw a young man I knew to be in AA whom I have never seen at our parish before. Have to agree. Blog owners can run their blogs how they like. RC Jr., of course, was top dog in the congregation(s) he led because of his fathers reputation and influence, maybe? To paint her as saying she is against treatment when she has said no such thing is not right. (The passage says these are found in the world, yes and moreover, in the church we are all sinners. This is not cool. Kathleen Melanie (Littlefield) Sproul died April 9, 2021, at her home at the age of 69. On the other hand if Sproul has bee covering up and protecting his son then maybe Sproul should be disqualified for protecting and covering. But we have to remember that those consequences dont have to be eternal ones but only temporary. Even if they were a woman. 1939 R. C. Sproul was born on February 13, 1939 in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USA as Robert Charles Sproul. If alcoholism is a disease, its the only one you can buy in a bottle. It got depressing, I have lost well over 200 of the people I worked with, most of them younger than I am. I have been trying to put many old demons to rest and cancel out some of those old tapes that keep repeating. You want to see whence my fury? Murder is a crime. What a hateful thing to recommend that be done for someone with a serious substance abuse problem. Quoting or summarizing her words is fine, but to point blank say she is against treatment for alcoholics is wrong when she did not say that. Those cannot be used as an excuse. She died after a 10-year battle with progressive supranuclear palsy, a rare neurological disease for which there is no cure and about which little is known. Fuss. Thats just not cool. Velour wrote: I will say this if this was just a pew sitter he would have been gone years ago tossed on the trash heap. The Bible calls drunkenness a sin. (Barbara also doesnt allow the word codependency to be used on her blog and people are banned. Drunkenness may involve more of a choice than does alcoholism. Hed lost his wife and daughter only works if we ignore chronologies. your anger is showing, yes I can never forget the dead that were dragged in off I-95 into our ER. I was on the road when it hit, Loma Prieta, things collapsing the road buckling and our house was thrashed though we did not know it until it sold a few years later during the inspection while selling it and we took a big loss on it; Foundational and chimney issues. Sr. cant make Jr. stop drinking. or a drunkard, [substance abuse] I have been talking about how the church should react in the face of this sort of egregious behavior. I think theres a mixing of apples and oranges here, and its been going on since the very start of this thread. I shouldnt have used the term unpleasant because Al-Anon isnt that at all. Id take it over blind faith any day. Start owning up to what you do. The authors said said that RC Jnr needs serous treatment which I assume was a typo because they meant he needs serious treatment., Serous means to do with blood. What are you agreeing with Barbara aboutthat all people with serious problems that require medical intervention and treatment should be publicly humiliated in a some kind of Salem Witch Trials II hearing? He is going to end up dead or lifelong in prison if he does not get serious help, and the fact that his family and colleagues contribute to his continued drinking behavior implicates them as well. Hmm. It is very sad that money, power and prestige can buy one out of justice. Having said that, I suggest you read the verses I gave (1 Cor 5:11-13). If he, or other Christians who are closer to Jr, have not confronted Jr scripturally, this greatly decreases my respect for them. The Church is to restore those who are struggling in sin not not shoot them. To an Alky, the Constitutional Right to My Next Drink cannot be infringed in any way. Has that been reported on or discussed? They spent a lot of time helping RC Jr. when his wife was dying. It is merely that when the topic came up I wrote about it, and note that I did not address my comment to any particular person. The Bible shows us how, and helps us to do that. which guy of those 3 would you choose to be stuck with? Some people view CR as just a Christian version of AA because it was founded by an AA leader. https://rachelheldevans.com/blog/ask-a-recovering-alcopholic-response-heather-kopp. Unfortunately, I am in a lot of pain and maybe looking at surgery so I am having trouble keeping up with things. Being a parent of an alcoholic or drug abuser is scary. She said, if you dont want to talk, its okay, but write me a letter .. she said just take the stationery and spill some coffee across it and sign your name and put it in envelope and SEND it. I did. Divorce would go beyond that to Its the end of the road.. of wine was effective in taking the edge of the pain so that I did not have to use any stronger pain medicines. I do not believe that an addict should be thrown out of church.There is afterall a disease involved, but a church should not enable. Many resources already exist and are perfectly fine. I am a broken, wounded woman, who happens to have different people in my life who cut, starve, purge, overeat, get drunk, medicate with R/X drugs, smoke pot, work themselves ragged, overspend, in hope to silence the agony of depression, intense anxiety, raging self-contempt, hopeless despair, excruciating shame, and (false) guilt. My concern about Barbaras comment is that at no time did she mention in-patient medical treatment for R.C. : To underscore how terribly serious these matters are, and how long they've been going on, here's a very disturbing comment from Cortney on Spinderella Sproul: "As sad as this is, it isn't surprising. The other individual was an executive at a corporation (think Sr. Vice President). In fact, they need to drink quantities, just to feel normal and function normally. But then (if Im remembering right), at some point in the progression of the disease, they cross some boundary and reach the point where they cant hold their liquor anymore. And it helped her on her road to sobriety. Please see the story that Friend posted today about how their churchs clergy dealt with a woman member who struggled with alcoholism. It should also be noted that removing someone from the church, for a time, does not mean they are declared an unbeliever. developing an alchoholic psychosis), then they have to have help to be restored enough to MAKE a decision about if they want to go forward in a good direction or not. @ okrapod: Sproul, Jr. has a serious drinking problem; Not everyone can financially afford to see a MHP, either. This may or may not be good advice in some cases, but it is certainly not a rule of thumb in that it assumes that the prior trauma caused the current bad behavior of hurting people and assumes that the person cannot help it when they hurt other people, and assumes that some prior trauma is a life time get out of jail free card for when the alleged victim of prior trauma may continue to hurt people. So, you feel that Sproul Jr should be fired as pastor but be allowed to sit in a church as a regular member, yes or no? There is more than one issue going on with RC2: alcoholism, spiritual abuse, unrepentant heart, etc. When court go through process you are instructed by your Atty and the judge how to plea to give you time to look at all alternatives. That feels like another put down and Im really uncomfortable with it. Youre not drunk if you can lean on the pulpit without holding on. -RC Sproul Jr. Now THAT is a Serious Sauce Hound speaking. He was 78. Not always. I dont doubt any of the bad things that people claim that R.C. Velour wrote: And I mentioned several times RC2s behavior that justifies him being put out. Pick up any newspaper and read. The writer Anne Lamott, a recovering alcoholic, writes about going to a black church in Northern California when Anne was not sober. honestly, if people front-loaded their development with Christian formation, then I think a lot of that Church discipline stuff wouldnt be needed, Why? Sproul was founder of Ligonier Ministries, first minister of preaching and teaching at Saint Andrew's Chapel in Sanford, Fla., and first president of R I believe I may have been on this blog longer than Velour has, though Ive not been posting here as much the last 2 3 months. I wanted to offer God as comfort but my father had had enough of the evangelical/catholic rhetoric from his mother and from our family priest and a war and so on. I read this website often . This Is NOT a Parody! Wasnt it radiology or something like that? Okrapod is a doctor to exercise unusual control over parishioners personal lives . He certainly has been respected for years, especially in Reformed church circles. Given what a big deal his arrest was it's surprising to me there hasn't been hardly any further word about his status since then. Then he orders his church to shun the entire family, including small children. The person will be encouraged to continue the behavior. I daresay that people would have learned less about alcoholism, too. Horrific..emotionally, physically , life changing in every way. They also seem to be very kind and generous; not manipulative, etc. To simply kick them out, in my opinion, is wrong. And, yes, there is more. Max often reminds us that most Baptist churchgoers dont pay much attention to theology. It appears so, based on this article: https://baptistnews.com/article/satisfaction-guaranteed-southern-baptists-refute-efforts-soften-atonement/#.WUxPq-mQzIU. Actually, at the end of the day he was responsible for his choices. Perhaps church is part of the problem not part of any solution. His boozing and chronic bully behavior was going on long before the family tragedies. (Dee replied) R.C. Thanks, Okrapod, for posting the quote you were referring to. See also Tullian Tchividjian. Im fortunate in that my Dad did get sober via AA. Just wanted to say, this echoes the thoughts that have been running through my mind after reading the article. 2. People were afraid to discuss it. The church. She's given me permission to share her letter and you can use it as you deem fit. I was laughing at the double-entendre of the typo. In fact the long term success stories are the exception, and according to CR headquarters what we experienced at our church is the statistical norm. Velour wrote: Velour, we get your point (how could we fail to see it when youve made it so many times?). The pain is awful, particularly when loved ones have been snatched away because someone foolishly chose to drink and drive. I find it a little odd that someone would seek out people in a church to ask for names and addresses of doctors, when they can get the same information online. Occasionally, there is the lone alcoholic who maintains stability but I dont believe that is the norm. It is criminal. You arent making any sense in your belief that were all supposed to intuit what Barbara is thinking and therefore she doesnt have to say it. Velour wrote: Some of the members (not necessarily the elders) of that church were indeed empathetic and caring, and went out of their way to meet with those who had been put out of the church. Two or three witnesses principle. Would love to see some stats on that. 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